So, a bit ago I said that I was no longer an anti-theist, for several reasons. Alex Gabriel responded in a post that stated:
I don’t object to either of Hughes’ posts, and I share the complex feelings he talks about—they’re just not reasons to adopt his stance.
Here’s the annoying thing about that post. He doesn’t really characterize my stance in it. Doesn’t really mention it. No, really, go look. The most he said is that I discussed my mother’s own suffering, her religious feelings, and my own prayer — which were EXAMPLES of my argument. Not my argument itself. Of course it would be ridiculous for me to say I’m not an anti-theist simply because my mother suffered, she felt religious, and she prayed once. Obviously. But those were examples of my larger point, not my whole entire point itself.
So, because that post got a bit of attention, I’d like to set the record straight a bit with where, exactly, I’m coming from, and what I think Alex Gabriel is missing in the ensuing conversation he engages in on what he states ARE correct reasons to adopt a stance on anti-theism.
One thing Alex Gabriel says in an earlier post on this topic is that I said I had sentiments that sounded fairly anti-theistic:
In the process of declaring they aren’t antitheists, some authors make concessions that sound nothing but. (Mass belief in a moralising god ‘does more harm than good’, argues Hughes. ‘Would I like to see the human race leave all religion behind…? Absolutely, yes’ adds Carter.) When people say in these posts that they aren’t antitheists, I get the sense what they mean is that they aren’t jerks.
This is a bit awkward to respond to, because earlier in the post Alex says that his post should not be read as a reply to me or to Carter, and he puts our arguments in parentheses here (for the record, you have permission to read this post unequivocally as a response to Alex Gabriel). So, possibly, it wouldn’t be right to assume that the remainder of his post (which continues to talk about how people who aren’t antitheists are concerned about being polite) would apply to me, I suppose…although his quotation in the above indicates it might…
In contrast to these concerns, Alex states that:
Being religious isn’t wicked on its own, and secular people aren’t necessarily better. Ditching faith wouldn’t solve all our problems — I doubt that ditching any one thing would, and there would be better candidates if I had to choose. But I don’t think any of this conflicts with the idea that overall, religious movements do more harm than good. If antitheism is the word we’re using for that, the only question that matters is this: if everyone on earth woke up an atheist, would the world be a better or worse place? For me the answer is better, and it doesn’t take me long to reach it. I don’t know how to say that in a palatable way — I don’t say it to be cruel or unkind — but there it is. It’s what seems true to me.
Here is the problem:
That word “better.”
How is not believing in God going to make the word better? In my view, a lack of belief in God, at least in Scandinavian countries, seems to follow a more healthy country, not cause it. In China, a high rate of disbelief exists alongside disturbing gender discrimination, although this has been alleviated in other countries that have higher degrees of atheism and agnosticism, even though the study stating this says that non-religious sentiments aren’t strictly necessary for this progress.
As I argued originally, while some seem to leave God to get out from the oppressive control of people, others seem to leave God in order to give themselves more of a “free-for-all” license to see some people as subhuman. I know this is inconvenient, but things like scientific racism from nonreligious sources have actually happened.
Here’s a hard truth: There is no scientific rule that says we ought to be humanists. None. You can be an atheist and want to kill people to get your version of Utopia, like Stalin. You can be an atheist and want to help people. Atheism does not necessarily make you a nicer person. It can. It opens up ways that weren’t open before for you to be a nice person. But it doesn’t, necessarily. And a lot of atheists aren’t nice people. I’m not just talking about other atheists, either. I’ve been accused a host of times of being an atheist who is not a nice person, by other atheists. Maybe people who say that are right — but they’re also kinda proving my point.
So I need more details on this scenario. What kinds of atheists are they? Do they all think Stalin is their hero, or are they more interested in the opinions of people like The Amazing Atheist? Or Greta Christina? Or Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris? I mean, there are some scenarios in which I could see that a world immediately replaced with atheists would be worse, and others in which it might be better. Answering that question is not as simple as saying yes or no, for me. It’s pretty complicated.
And the fact that something does more harm than good doesn’t mean that everyone is better off without any form of that thing. People may be better off with no water than with poisoned water, but that doesn’t mean that no water is the best possible solution, especially if you’ve seen bits of water that don’t seem all that harmful. That’s a bit of a false dichotomy in my book. So, even though many of us don’t need God and even think it’s gross or disgusting, there may still be some people for whom belief in God is much more psychologically essential. I mean, the American Psychological Association has seen that some people may be much, much, much more naturally connected to belief than others. Some of us don’t need God. Maybe most of us are better off without Him. But I’m not sure, based on what I’ve seen, that it’s this way for everyone — possibly, in some cases, the dogma is more dangerous than the basic belief in God itself.
Alex also seems to think (although he may not directly be addressing me) that:
I don’t market myself as an antitheist, but I feel strongly that I’m not not one. Explaining why is difficult without a certain amount of meta. When I read posts in the non-antitheism genre, it often strikes me that most of the wordcount is about other issues. I see other writers assert that the death of religion won’t solve all the world’s problems, and that in a world without it, people who currently hurt others in the name of God would just find other excuses. I hear them say deconverting believers isn’t their priority, and that they no longer feel an urge to pick fights with them. I listen to people say they care more about social justice than bashing religion, and that there are some awful atheists, and that they have more in common with plenty of progressive believers, and that they’d rather work with them. I see them point out that being an atheist doesn’t make them more intelligent than believers are, and that religious people don’t deserve to be hated.
None of these statements are to do with whether religion is a good thing.
Hm. Let’s go down the list. I don’t think the death of religion will solve the world’s problems (I don’t think he does either), and I don’t think people who currently hurt others in the name of God will necessarily find other excuses to do so. Deconverting believers isn’t my priority, but I don’t an honest conversation and sometimes a more strident one, when the situation calls for it.
But the items that I likely uphold is the fact that I care more about social justice than I do about bashing religion, and I’d also like to work with really progressive believers than “awful atheists” — whether it’s at the workplace or in a charity. I have a hunch that you would, too. I mean, I’m not lying when I say that I’d rather work with Obama than with Stalin any day of the week.
When I say these things, however, it’s because I see belief in God as complex, and because I actually do have higher priorities.
Alex Gabriel states later:
A part of me still wants to be, be like or be liked by religious believers, and I could do well as a faitheist, rehearsing the platitudes from paragraph four [the paragraph quoted above] — just as I could tell Christians what they want to hear on queer issues.
I’m more interested in saying what I think.
Fair enough. I’m not asking him to lie.
After a discussion in which he underlines the harm religions often dole out to people they suck in with love and consideration, he states:
When I hear people saying why they’re not antitheists — when I read tweets and Facebook statuses and blog posts and op-eds — these [the sentiments discussed earlier] are the statements I’m used to hearing. None of them are useful statements. All of them are either irrelevant or wrong. I don’t think anyone who says these things is being insincere, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they became things atheists said because they’re things believers like to hear, or feel like they might be. They’re delicate, diplomatic, sayable and politically correct.
OK, so let me clear the dust here and say no, I’m not being insincere. But when I say that my priority is on social justice over and above belief in God and that gets labeled as “politically correct”… I think the connotations of that word, insofar as they reference politeness without connection to the goal of reducing harm, may possibly be a mischaracterization of my position. My position, my priority, is diminishing harm. Diminishing belief in God (and any ensuing “political correctness”) is incidental.
Not being a jerk can be a priority, at times, when it entails diminishing harm.
Say you’re at a funeral, and everyone’s crying, and the father, crestfallen, comes up to the front to pray about seeing his son in heaven one day, and I stand on a pew, open my mouth, and scream at the top of my lungs, “He’s dead! He’s dead! He’s not in heaven, he’s rotting slowly in that overdone casket, and you’re never going to see him again you ignorant, flat-out wrong Christian!”
Now, that’s being a jerk, yes. And it’s also causing some harm in that time and place.
But would the dad be better off if he didn’t think he’d see his son in heaven? Am I diminishing harm or causing it?
Probably causing harm in that case, but I still need more information. For example, who is the dad hurting in his life through that belief? How much is that belief enabling him to keep living? Does he feel that the belief is beneficial or not? What kind of atheist would he be after he left the faith — would he live the rest of his life angry and bitter and creating harm because his son died? Or would he work harder to make sure fewer people died or went through the pain his son did? What kind of harm is the prayer doing to me, or to other people? How much is it hurting them? How much would shouting that increase harm? How much would it attack and diminish any harm that is being done?
This is complicated. I don’t know all of the answer, although I could probably guess based on how well I know the dad and the other congregants, but it’s difficult for me to say whether their lives would be better, in most scenarios. At other times, I may spout my opinion about the relationship he has with God. I might banter with him out of honesty, sure. I might blog about it. But do I want to get rid of his belief in God? Well, that’s not really a goal, necessarily, without more information.
To the extent that I am polite, I am not polite merely for meaningless niceties, but in order to reduce harm. The reason I don’t jump up and scream at the top of my lungs in the funeral service is not just because I’m concerned about meaningless niceties of being polite; it is largely because I care about the father’s grief, and at that moment I figure the chances are high that I would be doing more harm than good. This changes, obviously, if the prayer is doing great harm in the moment. But how polite or impolite I am is based on the harm my actions will cause.
See, this is where I think Alex’s problem is — the opposition between being polite and reducing harm/making things “better.” I don’t think they are necessarily opposed; there’s often significant overlap, which can muddle the conversation a bit.
Perhaps a way to widen the conversation, as Alex seems intent on doing, is to do what he does — underline the harm that religion is doing to people’s lives. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think that widening the conversation would, optimally, focus on harm. I will admit that there are versions of God that may need to go, due to strict enforcement of gender roles. But I also think that, even here, the problem is the harm caused, not necessarily a God-concept itself.
At the end of his second article, Alex states:
I’m often reminded of those [LGBT interfaith] events, and of experiences with religious relatives, when not being a jerk meant always making believers feel comfortable — even with platitudes that weren’t quite true; even when your nuance wasn’t really all that nuanced; even if you had to be indirect. Like I said at the end of the last post — there are better ways to build bridges than dishonest arguments.
Strange that he would say that the arguments are dishonest while also stating that he thinks the “diplomatic” statements he used as examples earlier are sincere statements, but in any case…I’m not advocating for anyone else to be dishonest. I’m not saying that anyone should feel a need to hold back, necessarily. Especially if it is causing undue harm (which it certainly seems to be, in Alex’s scenario) among those who have grievances. What I’m saying, honestly, is that the question for me concerns how much harm actions are causing or not causing, whether people have the same stance I have on God or not. This may look like politeness or rudeness (and the affects of how it looks do seem to play into the calculation of harm), but the end goal, the focus for me, is on reducing harm.
The events Alex discusses, I think, could be remedied by encouraging (strongly if necessary) people to listen more, and by ensuring that his right to speak was protected. I don’t (and I don’t think Alex does, either) think that all the religious people at such events need to be silenced. But there is a general principle here that his argument should be able to be voiced and stand on its merits in his forum. I don’t have to adopt an anti-theistic position to have this viewpoint, advocate it, or work to empower Alex to voice it.
OK, moving on, I’ll also say this: I said a lot of uncomplimentary things about anti-theists I have encountered who have prided themselves on a stoic version of the world, and stated that I’m uncomfortable with signing people up for that when they are happy where they are at. I’m certainly not saying ALL anti-theists are like this. But I have seen too many vocal anti-theists, over the years, say that religious people are “weak” because they need God, and that they are “strong” because they don’t need God, to indicate this isn’t the case — and this weak-strong dichotomy seems to continue even into atheism, leading them to ostracize atheists who seem to be “cucks” or “weak” or “victims” when they express concern about harm they are experiencing in their lives. What I’m trying to say is that, in many anti-theist constructs I’ve seen, this weak-strong construction just doesn’t seem all that helpful for reducing harm. It might create a toxic “community” for me to get some ex-Christians who are particularly susceptible to belief in God to join. For them, that particular strain of anti-theism could result in an increase in harm, not a decrease.
I know that not all anti-theists are like this. Plenty of atheists say they’ve never experienced this phenomenon among anti-theists (although several say they have). Fine. But I’ll take the communities on a case-by-case basis. My point is that I’m not just trying to make people atheists — I’m also thinking about the net harm the atheism they’ll experience may do or not do for their life afterwards, as I said in several posts. We could say that instead of demeaning up anti-theistic arenas, we should tidy them up, and I think that the “tidying up” carries importance. People need groups that are against religion strongly and unequivocally that, at the same time, are psychologically healthy. However, as things stand now I can’t pretend everyone will be better off in an atheist community. I’ll be honest about my atheism, but I’m not quite as much of an atheist evangelist, if that makes sense. If it comes up or if I have to fight something that’s causing harm, I’ll deal with it as it comes, without necessarily having the goal of getting rid of someone’s theism.
What I’m NOT saying is that we have to be nice towards religion. I’m saying that my current attitude towards religions does not have the focus of rubbing in that I am right, nor even of underlining the truth for the truth’s sake (a controversial position, I know), but on reducing overall harm. All harm. Religious harm and nonreligious harm. And sometimes (as I’ve done since leaving anti-theism) that does require cussing the religious types out to protect vulnerable groups. And sometimes it requires attacking your fellow atheists. But the goal is not atheism and it’s not theism; the debate, the conversation, is centered around reducing harm.
What I’m trying to say is that this division between making the world a better place and being nice to people isn’t really an easy one for me to see. Sure, I’m as against this kind of thing as much as the next guy when it comes to ridiculous rules on social behavior that have no real bearing on causing pleasure or pain to people. But the moment these acts of social behavior do cause pleasure or pain in people, they figure into equations of overall (including both short-term and long-term) harm that tilt the scale, in either direction, on what the best course of action will be.
Alex also says that the attitudes behind rejections of anti-theism force silence onto atheists by making them think their views are dangerous. I’m not saying you have to silence yourself. This is more about me. If you want to speak up against religion, do so. And if you seem harmed or silenced from doing so by other people, I will defend you. But my goal, in that case, is to protect you from undue harm; it’s often not, necessarily, to disabuse someone else of the concept of God, especially when I don’t know whether that’s going to do more good or harm. If they get deconverted based on something you and I say, fine. That’s a side occurence. That’s not the objective, for me (although it can be for you). The overall objective, for me, is to reduce harm in the situation I find myself in.
It’s kinda like Desmond Doss, that WWII conscientious objector who pissed a hell of a lot of people off with his decision not to go into the war with a rifle. Not exactly like that, but the analogy helps, I think. People were pissed off as hell at his decision, at first, and its rooting in his strong Seventh-Day Adventist faith. But he decided to diminish the harm of the war as much as he could as a medic; that was his focus in Japan. That resonates with me a bit. In the crossfire, I’d like to try to diminish harm. Which is, in some ways, a weird position for me. Anyone who has been following me on here knows I got fighting running through my veins. And I’ll still fight. But my goal is not to beat the other side, so much as it is to diminish the harm on all sides. I’m here on the atheist side, so most of my action will likely come from here. But I wanna reach out to theists who are harmed, too, because we’re all part of the same world.
How is that a change? Simple. Before this, I thought that trying to pursue the goal of getting rid of religion around the world was essential for us to access the best chance we had of living with less harm. I don’t think that anymore, for a variety of reasons. If you do, I’m not necessarily in your way, although I may respond if you seem to challenge my own stance. But my view of “better” has gotten more complicated, and it includes possible harm to theists I didn’t factor in before, and honesty demands that I include it.
I think this is where a major question lies, though: What do you mean by “better”? No, by “better” I don’t just mean specific examples of the harm God-rooted actions have done, like this list I wrote once. Yes, belief in God has led many to do some disturbing things (and many nonreligious people have done disturbing things, as well) that we have every right to be incensed about. I mean that if you are among those who think atheism will give us a better world, try to give a concrete definition of what you mean by “better.” When I try to do that, I begin to see that “better” means less harm, not necessarily less belief in God, and that the second didn’t necessarily make the first more likely (especially when the kind of people who would have less belief in God — the kind of attitude the atheists have — is not clearly defined). Of course, your definition might be different, and I’d be interested to hear it.
I have more I’m going to write on this, but that should do it for now.
Thanks for reading.
P.S. I have a Patreon, in case you want to help me do what I’m doing.